[Banita Jacks] told police that they were "possessed by demons" and that they had been dead for at least four months.Shades of Andrea Yates.
Once inside [Jacks's home], marshals found religious writings on the walls, authorities said.
Grisly details here and here.
17 comments:
Huh? Why does the second "grisly details" link go to the Bible?
It goes to the Old Testament, and because it contains stuff like this:
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Je regrette, mon amie, but I have to say I found this post to be a bit over the line. I can appreciate your position on religion, but it seems like you are trivializing the tragedy and the apparent mental illness behind it, just to take a gratuitous swipe at Christianity.
As far as I'm concerned, it goes without saying that the killing of four children by their mother is a terrible tragedy. It practically defines tragedy.
Nor am I trivializing mental illness; however, the connection between it and religion is often remarkable:
"[R]eligious delusions are commonly found in schizophrenia and that by comparison with other patients who have schizophrenia, those patients with religious delusions appear to be more severely ill."
If it's the case that Ms. Jacks's (or others similarly afflicted) religious delusions exacerbated her illness, then the possibility is greater that this tragedy may have been avoided without them.
If it's the case that Ms. Jacks's (or others similarly afflicted) religious delusions exacerbated her illness, then the possibility is greater that this tragedy may have been avoided without them.
I am afraid that you are misreading the reference. The religious aspect of people's delusions is not causal, but symptomatic, of the severity of the psychosis. I have seen it several times. People use the "God told me to do this" or "The devil made me do it" type of rationale to help them cope with the fact that they are experiencing hallucinations and abnormal thought patterns.
Although, I do often wonder how this relates to GWBush stating that God told him to invade Iraq.
The religious aspect of people's delusions is not causal, but symptomatic, of the severity of the psychosis.
Understood, and I appreciate both the distinction and the fact of your pointing it out. Nevertheless, it seems to me that the religious delusions are a feature of the diagnosis, without which the affliction would be less severe and outcomes such as these might be more easily treatable and therefore more likely preventable.
As for Christianity, incidentally, the idea of demon possession is not exclusive to it, nor is demon possession a belief held by all Christians.
By the way, and forgive me if I'm misreading your examples, but if I'm not mistaken, the evidence in the Yates case showed not that "the devil made me do it" was a post hoc rationalization for her bad behavior, but rather the religious delusions were preexisting and led directly to the bad behavior.
In the Yates case, the psychopathy and its religious content weren't the whole story. Perhaps the most disturbing part of the back story was the religious group/community to which Yates belonged, and who targeted Yates and her family with literature and direct communication suggesting that they were evil parents whose children would go to hell. That deserves more than a "swipe"; it deserves an ass-kicking and a sociological look to see just how widespread such practices are.
In this case? No evidence yet of a particular religious community exploiting or worsening this woman's condition. I mean, except for the general culture of church-going, faith sections in every major newspaper, religious broadcast across the radio dial, and dozens of broadcast hours of televangelism per week automatically packaged with every basic cable television package, everywhere in North America. Which isn't nothing.
I'd just like to add that this kind of discussion, without the rancor or name-calling, would not be possible in any of our local conservative blogs.
Regarding Christianity and delusion, I have to agree with IT that some of the tenets of that belief unfortunately lead to really bizarre behavior, all in the name of faith.
And then there is the example of many members of the KKK who truly thought they were advancing the cause of Christianity.
dozens of broadcast hours of televangelism per week automatically packaged with every basic cable television package ...
And yet no NFL Network! Speaking of which, I need to prepare for a certain quasi-religious event, so while I hope the discussion continues, I shan't be checking in on it until later today or tomorrow.
Hmm, I thought the snarky headline was a reference to a way that someone's atheism is often held up as a reason for their illegal behavior.
The examples I used were just general statements, and I was not referring them to any specific case. Sorry for the lack of clarity.
Now to the meat of the issue. Nevertheless, it seems to me that the religious delusions are a feature of the diagnosis, without which the affliction would be less severe and outcomes such as these might be more easily treatable and therefore more likely preventable.
Let me iterate, the religious aspect is a symptom of the disease, not a complication of it. The article reference by iT shows that there is some commonality, but not causality, of the severity of the illness. In other words, religion did not make them sicker, the religious delusions was a sign that the disease's severity.
Religion, per se, would not make the illness worse, any more than it would make a person's diabetes worse. In fact, ofttimes, professionals will use a person's belief in a higher power to help stabilize the person, along with traditional therapy and medications.
Unfortunately, schizophrenia is not preventable, but is usually genetic. Most schizophrenics do respond well to Haldol, or any number of the newer drugs on the market. For the most severe, there may be no way to control it, but that would be true whether or not religious delusions are presented.
Now, for Tim. There are, sadly, many people that due commit atrocities in the name of their god or gods. I don't know if I would call that a mental illness as much as just being a rationalizing ass. Although, they probably could be diagnosed with a personality disorder. I, for one, don't want to do that, as that almost everyone has some sort of personality disorder. Rationalizing ass is much easier.
For the ones that genuinely, believe that God told them to do something, that is not religion (usually, depending on one's belief system) but an auditory and/or visual hallucination. If it's not God, or demons, it's ET, or the government telling them what to do, or persecuting them, or whatnot, and it's tin foil hats for everyone.
And you also know that there are many conservatives that one could hold this type of discussion with, like Bill or James. However, for the others who shall not be named, I do have some theories about why they are like they are, but would rather save my hypothoses for a more appropriate time and place, where little paranoid eyes cannot pry. (In other words, in private, either electronically or for that fateful day when we do get to meet. This also includes you, iT.)
capper, just to be clear, I didn't say schizophrenia was preventable. I said this outcome -- the killings -- may have been a manifestation of schizophrenia plus religious delusions which, according to the PubMed abstract, equals greater severity of illness.
What I'm suggesting, based on the above, is that had the religious delusions not been part of the equation, the crimes may not have been committed, since the subject would have been "less severely ill," according to the abstract.
This is different from suggesting the religious delusions were causative of the acts, and I appreciate and concur with your comments in that regard.
I also appreciate the fact that religion is often put to therapeutic and positive use in the contexts you describe.
Religious beliefs are especially compelling to many people because they invoke the power of "greater" beings, inspire submission to the perceived desires of those greater beings, lead to rewards in an afterlife, and so forth.
Obviously they inspire people to do good things as well as bad.
And John, what I had in mind was more of the idea, commonly expressed by many believers, that non-believers are by definition incapable of formulating coherent moral systems, or at least that these moral systems are somehow lacking or degraded for want of absolutist, supernatural guidance.
Ah, now I see clearly. I am sorry for misconstruing what you were saying.
I fully concur with your point as well.
On a side note, it does make me pause to wonder, if healthcare and society in general wasn't so mucked up, if these people could have received the help they needed before they committed these atrocious acts. But that question is for another day.
Good Heavens [sic], don't be sorry, and thanks for starting the excellent thread.
As for your other issues, they're being raised as well:
D.C. Mayor Describes Missteps Before Girls Died.
Oh, how bloody awful! Unfortunately, I've seen similar things here in Milwaukee. Social services are often the favorite target for budget cuts, and this leads to the agencies being forced to cut corners. They start to find reasons not to do their job, because they do not have the funding for it. Then tragedies like this occur. Then to make matters worse, the same public officials that created the problem, blame the workers instead of looking at their own contribution to the problem.
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